Hey Kasra, I see many young people (I’m 54) lamenting struggling with friends. A couple things I’ve observed:
-It’s harder to make friends in big cities. With so many options for things to do, meeting with you is just 1 of many options.
-Big cities tend to be more transient. Many people try NY or LA etc because they are definitely exciting places to be but they can be harsh in a variety of ways that causes people to leave.
-Age matters. In your 20s/30s many factors contribute to losing friends: job changes, going back to school, marriage, having kids. This does get better in your 40s as people’s lives stabilize again
-Give up trying to replicate what you had in high school/college dorm. Those were unusual physical proximity/frequency environments that are nearly impossible to replicate as adults
-If you find even one person you REALLY resonate with, put more effort into that person, 1 awesome friend is better than 50 acquaintances. The kind of person you call in an emergency.
-By the time they’re 50, most men do not have any close friends, take this warning seriously, it’s an absolutely miserable feeling realizing that fewer and fewer people would come to your funeral. Invest now because…
-Time spent together matters. You can have one amazing outing but if you only do that once a quarter it doesn’t feel like a friend. I’ve found 2x a month feels like the minimum. In person preferable but call if not.
-Don’t look to marriage to solve loneliness. Your spouse and later kids will become your primary relational world, but many married people are lonely too, plus your spouse can’t meet all your relational needs. You need friends outside the marriage.
Second this! “-If you find even one person you REALLY resonate with, put more effort into that person, 1 awesome friend is better than 50 acquaintances. The kind of person you call in an emergency.”
Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this piece. Have enjoyed your pieces in my inbox.
FWIW, what you describe wanting 'long-term friendships and stability' is part of why I ended up leaving San Francisco. It's a very transient city. I realize the irony of leaving a transient city haha. Of the group of say 50-70 friends and acquaintances who I knew there in 2011-2013, I think roughly 2-5% of them were still there 5 years later. The ones I know who are still there had to make huge tech money and/or sell a company to be able to buy a house. I'd recommend the east bay if you're looking for somewhere less transient.
But yeah, I can totally relate to having multiple disparate groups of people who don't quite gel. Having to schedule people out for an hour hang 3 weeks ahead of time. etc. I remember reading about the term 'planshopping' in a Tim Ferriss book (who lived in SF for a long while). [Planshopping - That is, deferring committing to any one plan for an evening until you know what all your options are, and then picking the one that’s most likely to be fun/advance your career/have the most girls at it—in other words, treating people like menu options or products in a catalog.]
The East Bay is still fairly transient but people stick around a lot longer. I'm also finding it's easier in my 30s to find people who are down for long chill frequent impromptu and satisfying hangs.
great post as always. and it was published at the *exact* moment I was thinking about how I feel like my time in ny is coming to an end soon—for reasons not yet completely obvious to me, because much like you, ny has been fantastic to me in many ways. maybe it’s just this stage of life (late 20s & early 30s)!
Great reflective post! I personally blew up my life in nyc and moved to Miami for a job only to realize that I love NYC more than anything. You're correct that it's a reversible decision for remote workers. I've found for myself that hosting intentionally small gatherings with people I really enjoy has been the most fulfilling solve for the natural loneliness of inhabiting packed spaces of albeit interesting people. Best of luck to you in your new chapter :)
i found your essay randomly through my algorithm on twitter. this was a very interesting and timely read for me as I've had a very similar conversation with close friends recently about what you're talking about and I was struggling to understand this problem of depth versus breadth of network.
disclaimer: I've been in NYC nearly 10 years as of next year, having moved right after college after interning twice in the city. i bought an apartment here in 2021, which felt like I was locking myself into NYC permanently, so to speak.
Because I actually fully understand your frustrations with the core of the problem (and thank you for so succinctly summarizing it through this essay!): New York is a very transient city for so many people. Some people are only contractually here for a few months. Some people live here but have to travel for work constantly. Some people work gig-based jobs so their schedules are unpredictable.
I'm chewing on a few bits:
"it’s just that building such a community takes effort. and between my work, my hobbies, and the various other preoccupations and interruptions in my life, I did not have much energy left for building and maintaining a close-knit community of best friends."
I agree that building deep connections takes effort, more so than in other city it feels like. And it seems like you genuinely put in the effort to do so, kudos! But I guess I'm reading some of your frustrations as you really wanted quality of _time_ spent with other people and I can't help but think that these might be competing if you're creating social spaces where you're casting a wider net for people. I'll agree with what Dave Kang said: resonating with one person and pursuing that connection is really the winning strategy; those are how I've made my longest lasting friendships in NYC immune to changes in life.
Something I do after hosting a function: I send thank you texts and follow up with specific people if there was a reason / vibe to. Yes, scheduling is annoying but it's rewarding if they follow through.
but I think to your point of not having _enough_ energy left: I dunno, I think part of being a New Yorker is finding the energy to connect with people _despite_ all of the other things. New Yorkers all understand that although we're busy, few people are ever _that_ busy.
on spontaneous hangouts: it's funny, I've had the polar opposite experience with the two cities. So many of my NYC plans hate planning, and very much go with the vibe. The first few years in NYC I didn't need to plan anything in advance because I would get the last minute "meet us here" text. Part of developing that connection was actually accepting that invite and showing up always. In contrast when I visit SF, all of my friends need hard details and times because they're going to have to "commute" to the function and deal with parking/transportation, all symptoms I always attributed to West Coast Problems™.
if nothing else, it seems like you gave NYC a genuine effort so after reading this, I understand fully why the nuclear option made natural sense. I commend you for actually exhausting your options before going with that route, the nuclear option is always so easy.
thank you for reading and for this lovely comment! seconding everything you said – being an "event host" is in some ways incompatible with getting quality time with close friends, and it does seem better to go deeper with individual people (or with a small group) than trying to give a bit of time to everyone. and interesting that you had the inverse experience with spontaneity haha, I do think a lot of it boils down to the specific circles we find ourselves in. I'm happy that you've stuck it out in NYC and have set roots there – that's also something that takes maturity and courage to do.
Agreed for sure. I've since talked about SF vs NYC with a few friends and we all had vice versa experiences so it might be that it's not the city but just the people you end up finding and the timing under which you do so! Luck of the draw really.
Reading this reminded me of my own almost life-long struggle to find a circle of friends where I truly feel at home—where loneliness isn’t something I carry with me. The way you described your time in New York, being so socially active—with hundreds of friends, events, and communities—only to ultimately find it unfulfilling really resonates with me. It’s disappointing, but not because of you or your journey. Rather, it’s made me reflect on my own situation, and I can’t help but feel embarrassed and upset about where I am in comparison. (with a sigh of sorrow in the end)
I get you ❤️ but still you've made a lot of valuable friendships over the years, and you've also made some big changes to your life that most people would be too afraid of doing. there's still many decades to make close friends, and the journey never stops :)
super crazy! I was *just* about to post a similar story about myself. i lived in nyc for 10+ years and while i made amazing friends, and fun acquaintances, a lot of what you said resonated with me. I recently moved to CT (not quite as far as SF).
My challenge with nyc is there is too much of a cultural focus on being *busy* and *surface* things over depth of conversation. of course, with the right group of people, that can be fun in its own way. however, i’ve really struggled to feel at home.
the fun and excitement was awesome in my 20s, it doesn’t do it in my 30s. Will sign up on your forms for events and hopefully will meet you IRL one day!
what a profoundly reflective note, Kasra! I haven’t lived in nyc but in my 4ish dipsticks, I’ve felt very similarly about the city. I plan my friend-dates a week in advance, people are mostly double booked and I’ve missed the “hey let’s hang in a few and see where the day takes us?” except on one occasion. The energy and diversity is always fascinating and at times, overwhelming.
i just did the same thing, but moving out of sf to new delhi :) i was very happy in sf but could see that transience kicking in - felt like a lot of my circle were moving out of the city or seriously contemplating moves and i felt like i would end up seriously unhappy if i stuck around long enough to lose my community. but totally agree that sf is much more conducive to lingering hangouts, and i hope you love your time there! i really appreciated the point about reversibility in your post too, made me feel a lot better about a decision that scared me terribly and still does haha
Very interesting and relatable. Do you think this is truly inherent to NYC or a symptom of an overall trend in modern life? Do you think it would be possible to "blow up" and start anew in NYC? like any practical advice to make things work there, or just not possible?
great questions. I definitely think it's a general thing – some cities might be more transient/fast-paced than others, but you'll run into it everywhere, especially for people in their 20s/30s.
one way it's possible to "blow up" and start anew in the same city is just to leave for a while and come back. I'm not sure of other ways – it's hard to overcome inertia in your existing habits and routines without shaking things up a lot.
the main practical advice for NYC (or any city) is just: create (or find) strong social rituals – weekly dinners with the same people, clubs that involve a shared hobby, etc. keep investing in the people who do show up consistently, rather than always going for breadth & novelty
good friends and community can be hard to find all across the world (I'm in New Zealand!) but they are there - sometimes just not exactly how you might want them. I agree with a comment below about how proximity can drive relationships in college/university but I think this is true as we get older as well, such as neighbours or people who live in your suburb as you more often see them over and over again. It can be hard to build such a community when people are so busy. I hope SF continues to work out well.
This resonates on so many levels. I similarly yearn for the small friend group that regularly hangs out every week, if not multiple times a week. There's a genuine sense of living life together rather than catching up on life.
Excited for you in this next chapter and looking forward to seeing you in SF soon :)
Hey Kasra, I see many young people (I’m 54) lamenting struggling with friends. A couple things I’ve observed:
-It’s harder to make friends in big cities. With so many options for things to do, meeting with you is just 1 of many options.
-Big cities tend to be more transient. Many people try NY or LA etc because they are definitely exciting places to be but they can be harsh in a variety of ways that causes people to leave.
-Age matters. In your 20s/30s many factors contribute to losing friends: job changes, going back to school, marriage, having kids. This does get better in your 40s as people’s lives stabilize again
-Give up trying to replicate what you had in high school/college dorm. Those were unusual physical proximity/frequency environments that are nearly impossible to replicate as adults
-If you find even one person you REALLY resonate with, put more effort into that person, 1 awesome friend is better than 50 acquaintances. The kind of person you call in an emergency.
-By the time they’re 50, most men do not have any close friends, take this warning seriously, it’s an absolutely miserable feeling realizing that fewer and fewer people would come to your funeral. Invest now because…
-Time spent together matters. You can have one amazing outing but if you only do that once a quarter it doesn’t feel like a friend. I’ve found 2x a month feels like the minimum. In person preferable but call if not.
-Don’t look to marriage to solve loneliness. Your spouse and later kids will become your primary relational world, but many married people are lonely too, plus your spouse can’t meet all your relational needs. You need friends outside the marriage.
I wish you the best,
Dave
thank you so much for this comment Dave!
Second this! “-If you find even one person you REALLY resonate with, put more effort into that person, 1 awesome friend is better than 50 acquaintances. The kind of person you call in an emergency.”
Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this piece. Have enjoyed your pieces in my inbox.
FWIW, what you describe wanting 'long-term friendships and stability' is part of why I ended up leaving San Francisco. It's a very transient city. I realize the irony of leaving a transient city haha. Of the group of say 50-70 friends and acquaintances who I knew there in 2011-2013, I think roughly 2-5% of them were still there 5 years later. The ones I know who are still there had to make huge tech money and/or sell a company to be able to buy a house. I'd recommend the east bay if you're looking for somewhere less transient.
But yeah, I can totally relate to having multiple disparate groups of people who don't quite gel. Having to schedule people out for an hour hang 3 weeks ahead of time. etc. I remember reading about the term 'planshopping' in a Tim Ferriss book (who lived in SF for a long while). [Planshopping - That is, deferring committing to any one plan for an evening until you know what all your options are, and then picking the one that’s most likely to be fun/advance your career/have the most girls at it—in other words, treating people like menu options or products in a catalog.]
The East Bay is still fairly transient but people stick around a lot longer. I'm also finding it's easier in my 30s to find people who are down for long chill frequent impromptu and satisfying hangs.
I wish you the best of luck in SF.
thank you! yea I can really see that dynamic in SF too
great post as always. and it was published at the *exact* moment I was thinking about how I feel like my time in ny is coming to an end soon—for reasons not yet completely obvious to me, because much like you, ny has been fantastic to me in many ways. maybe it’s just this stage of life (late 20s & early 30s)!
thanks sundus! looking forward to hearing what you decide and always happy to chat
Great reflective post! I personally blew up my life in nyc and moved to Miami for a job only to realize that I love NYC more than anything. You're correct that it's a reversible decision for remote workers. I've found for myself that hosting intentionally small gatherings with people I really enjoy has been the most fulfilling solve for the natural loneliness of inhabiting packed spaces of albeit interesting people. Best of luck to you in your new chapter :)
thank you Elliot! agreed, small gatherings with close friends feels like the right move, planning to do more of that
i found your essay randomly through my algorithm on twitter. this was a very interesting and timely read for me as I've had a very similar conversation with close friends recently about what you're talking about and I was struggling to understand this problem of depth versus breadth of network.
disclaimer: I've been in NYC nearly 10 years as of next year, having moved right after college after interning twice in the city. i bought an apartment here in 2021, which felt like I was locking myself into NYC permanently, so to speak.
Because I actually fully understand your frustrations with the core of the problem (and thank you for so succinctly summarizing it through this essay!): New York is a very transient city for so many people. Some people are only contractually here for a few months. Some people live here but have to travel for work constantly. Some people work gig-based jobs so their schedules are unpredictable.
I'm chewing on a few bits:
"it’s just that building such a community takes effort. and between my work, my hobbies, and the various other preoccupations and interruptions in my life, I did not have much energy left for building and maintaining a close-knit community of best friends."
I agree that building deep connections takes effort, more so than in other city it feels like. And it seems like you genuinely put in the effort to do so, kudos! But I guess I'm reading some of your frustrations as you really wanted quality of _time_ spent with other people and I can't help but think that these might be competing if you're creating social spaces where you're casting a wider net for people. I'll agree with what Dave Kang said: resonating with one person and pursuing that connection is really the winning strategy; those are how I've made my longest lasting friendships in NYC immune to changes in life.
Something I do after hosting a function: I send thank you texts and follow up with specific people if there was a reason / vibe to. Yes, scheduling is annoying but it's rewarding if they follow through.
but I think to your point of not having _enough_ energy left: I dunno, I think part of being a New Yorker is finding the energy to connect with people _despite_ all of the other things. New Yorkers all understand that although we're busy, few people are ever _that_ busy.
on spontaneous hangouts: it's funny, I've had the polar opposite experience with the two cities. So many of my NYC plans hate planning, and very much go with the vibe. The first few years in NYC I didn't need to plan anything in advance because I would get the last minute "meet us here" text. Part of developing that connection was actually accepting that invite and showing up always. In contrast when I visit SF, all of my friends need hard details and times because they're going to have to "commute" to the function and deal with parking/transportation, all symptoms I always attributed to West Coast Problems™.
if nothing else, it seems like you gave NYC a genuine effort so after reading this, I understand fully why the nuclear option made natural sense. I commend you for actually exhausting your options before going with that route, the nuclear option is always so easy.
thank you for reading and for this lovely comment! seconding everything you said – being an "event host" is in some ways incompatible with getting quality time with close friends, and it does seem better to go deeper with individual people (or with a small group) than trying to give a bit of time to everyone. and interesting that you had the inverse experience with spontaneity haha, I do think a lot of it boils down to the specific circles we find ourselves in. I'm happy that you've stuck it out in NYC and have set roots there – that's also something that takes maturity and courage to do.
Agreed for sure. I've since talked about SF vs NYC with a few friends and we all had vice versa experiences so it might be that it's not the city but just the people you end up finding and the timing under which you do so! Luck of the draw really.
Reading this reminded me of my own almost life-long struggle to find a circle of friends where I truly feel at home—where loneliness isn’t something I carry with me. The way you described your time in New York, being so socially active—with hundreds of friends, events, and communities—only to ultimately find it unfulfilling really resonates with me. It’s disappointing, but not because of you or your journey. Rather, it’s made me reflect on my own situation, and I can’t help but feel embarrassed and upset about where I am in comparison. (with a sigh of sorrow in the end)
I get you ❤️ but still you've made a lot of valuable friendships over the years, and you've also made some big changes to your life that most people would be too afraid of doing. there's still many decades to make close friends, and the journey never stops :)
super crazy! I was *just* about to post a similar story about myself. i lived in nyc for 10+ years and while i made amazing friends, and fun acquaintances, a lot of what you said resonated with me. I recently moved to CT (not quite as far as SF).
My challenge with nyc is there is too much of a cultural focus on being *busy* and *surface* things over depth of conversation. of course, with the right group of people, that can be fun in its own way. however, i’ve really struggled to feel at home.
the fun and excitement was awesome in my 20s, it doesn’t do it in my 30s. Will sign up on your forms for events and hopefully will meet you IRL one day!
thanks for reading!
what a profoundly reflective note, Kasra! I haven’t lived in nyc but in my 4ish dipsticks, I’ve felt very similarly about the city. I plan my friend-dates a week in advance, people are mostly double booked and I’ve missed the “hey let’s hang in a few and see where the day takes us?” except on one occasion. The energy and diversity is always fascinating and at times, overwhelming.
thanks for reading Lakshmi!
I like how explicit your intentions are. Too bad we couldn’t link while you were in nyc but thanks for the third space recs.
i just did the same thing, but moving out of sf to new delhi :) i was very happy in sf but could see that transience kicking in - felt like a lot of my circle were moving out of the city or seriously contemplating moves and i felt like i would end up seriously unhappy if i stuck around long enough to lose my community. but totally agree that sf is much more conducive to lingering hangouts, and i hope you love your time there! i really appreciated the point about reversibility in your post too, made me feel a lot better about a decision that scared me terribly and still does haha
thanks for reading, and best of luck with your move :)
awesome read, I feel like you put into words what I was thinking about for a while.
Very interesting and relatable. Do you think this is truly inherent to NYC or a symptom of an overall trend in modern life? Do you think it would be possible to "blow up" and start anew in NYC? like any practical advice to make things work there, or just not possible?
great questions. I definitely think it's a general thing – some cities might be more transient/fast-paced than others, but you'll run into it everywhere, especially for people in their 20s/30s.
one way it's possible to "blow up" and start anew in the same city is just to leave for a while and come back. I'm not sure of other ways – it's hard to overcome inertia in your existing habits and routines without shaking things up a lot.
the main practical advice for NYC (or any city) is just: create (or find) strong social rituals – weekly dinners with the same people, clubs that involve a shared hobby, etc. keep investing in the people who do show up consistently, rather than always going for breadth & novelty
good friends and community can be hard to find all across the world (I'm in New Zealand!) but they are there - sometimes just not exactly how you might want them. I agree with a comment below about how proximity can drive relationships in college/university but I think this is true as we get older as well, such as neighbours or people who live in your suburb as you more often see them over and over again. It can be hard to build such a community when people are so busy. I hope SF continues to work out well.
thanks Jana!
miss u <3 u
Such a great post that made me realize how deep you are in your friendship and definite about what you want in your relationship!
I appreciate your honesty and bravery in your relationship and thinking about life!
Love
This resonates on so many levels. I similarly yearn for the small friend group that regularly hangs out every week, if not multiple times a week. There's a genuine sense of living life together rather than catching up on life.
Excited for you in this next chapter and looking forward to seeing you in SF soon :)
+1 for blowing up your life - highly recommend